Note: The following videos are from Sunday school gathering, in which an exchange took place between teachers and one of our students. Click on the video comments for time stamps, which summarizes the subjects.
Although the discussion was geared towards addressing the questions of a child, I think the contents of the videos are beneficial for adults as well.
Q and A session part 1
Q and A session part 2
6 comments:
Hi Waheed. Children can be so perceptive, can't they? We can learn so much from them. She is such a lovely child.
What I wonder about is how convinced she is by your answers. She seems to have some doubts.
You, yourself, don't seem all that convinced by your own answers. You point out how scholars have been debating these questions for hundreds of years and still don't agree on the answers, and that your answer is just an opinion, and at times a minority opinion, at that. What is wrong with this picture?
I believe that to understand the story of Adam and Eve, you must read it from the perspective of those who wrote it. You should notice that I am using the same methodology for understanding the Bible as I do for understanding the Qur'an. There is no bias one way of the other.
Most scholars agree that very little of the Bible was written down before the destruction of Solomon's Temple in 587 BC. Therefore, what can we say about the Bible writers who were writing about Adam and Eve during the time after the destruction of the Jewish nation?
Something that I find interesting about this question is how differently Jews and Christians read this same story. The Christians need an Original Sin in order to justify a Redeemer, otherwise, what would be the role of Christ? However, you don't find any part of this concept in the Book of Genesis, itself. It is this connection between Adam and Jesus that is so problematic for Christian apologists, and not the story itself, as told by the post-exilic Jews.
Genesis 3 is only 24 verses, yet it says so much about the nature of human life. It is also very straightforward and doesn't leave you asking unanswerable questions. The metaphors are easily understood. The problems arise only when trying to adapt the story into a theology that is full of contradictions and unanswerable questions.
If I was teaching children about Adam and Eve, I would focus on the Bible's verses and what they tell us about ourselves. I think the teaching would be clear and the children would not be left in confusion.
Hello N.B.
It was a lovely exchange. It can be challenging to put issues of scriptural interpretation, religious principles and idea, in a way that children will easily grasp.
I believe that there is a great many metaphors present in the Qur'an (and indeed, in other scriptures as well), also, that the views that are widely held actually don't coincide with the Qur'an and Prophetic tradition (Sunnah) at all.
So what we have to do is to present the facts as we honestly view them, in a fashion that will be understandable.
So, regarding the Adam and Eve story, The Qur'anic account differs from the Biblical one. There is no Original sin theory. We are all accountable for our actions, not the actions of others. Death, the pain of childbirth as well as menstruation, are not consequences of sin. They are a part of existence. Moreover, while there is a life after death, and a place known as "The paradise" or "The Garden" or "Heaven", the location of that place was here, in this world, not somewhere else.
Christ need not die for our sins, because that would be extremely unjust and frankly strange.
This is what Islam teaches.
Some Muslims have been influenced by Christian accounts, which is why the Qur'an is important. I agree that the Qur'an likewise tells us about ourselves, and that the account of creation has so many lessons in those regards.
I am not commenting too much on the Genesis story, mainly because that was not really presented in the sunday school. The emphasis is on how the story appeared in the Qur'an.
Hi Waheed. I wish that you would read what I write a little more carefully and not make assumptions. I was trying to make two points:
1. What and how we teach our children, and
2. The differences between the Biblical story and the Qur'anic story. Have you read the Bible story and seen that very little of what you mention are within the story itself?
On the first point, I am reminded of a discussion we had regarding a Hadith saying that every child is born in a state of Fitrah. You may recall that while I agreed with the notion that children are born in such a way, I was highly offended by the singling out of Christians and Jews as being uniquely guilty of spiritually corrupting their children. We ALL need to be mindful of what we teach our children.
The main point that I was trying to make is that you should listen carefully to what the child is saying and you should respect the possibility that a child in the state of Fitrah might actually be closer to the Truth than you are. Please listen to her words and think about them. Think about your answers. Do not give answers which are speculative. Do not impose your religious views on a child before the child is mature enough to judge for herself.
At times, you "corrected" her thinking, when others could easily have defended her position. What impact does that have on her, given her trust in you?
Please go back and listen to her every word and the answers you gave. If you would provide a transcript, I would be happy to point out the specific issues.
When I get a chance, I'll expand on my second point and what the Bible story teaches. It should be obvious that there are many lessons in those few verses which are universal, which are exceedingly important, and which can be taught to ALL children regardless of their religious beliefs.
In my opinion, the Quranic account is too bound into the religion and, hence, too incomprehensible for children. You already agreed with me when you wrote: "It can be challenging to put issues of scriptural interpretation, religious principles and idea, in a way that children will easily grasp."
Hello N-B.
With regards to your comment above, frankly I don't see the issue that you are trying to raise. Certainly people of faith (or who don't belong to any particular community) will teach their children as they see fit. To answer the second point, yes I have read the Biblical story, as well as the Quranic story. If you believe that I have incorrectly stated the story, then do share where you think that took place. I am not going to provide a transcript, if you want to research that by reviewing the recordings, feel free to do so.
You mention " Do not impose your religious views on a child before the child is mature enough to judge for herself." I find that statement very strange. After all, parents enroll their children in sunday schools worldwide, even some Hindu and Sikh temples in the US that I know of are now offering sunday school lessons. Certainly these places and instructors are called upon to give "religious views". That is, by definition, precisely the function of a sunday school. Indeed, in any subject, in any sort of educational environment, the teacher will give (asked or not) their own understandings or methods of understanding of the subject matter, so long as it broadly fits into the educational parameters of the institute and established authority.
You also say " in my opinion, the Quranic account is too bound into the religion and, hence, too incomprehensible for children" . The Qur'an is a religious text, so of course it is "bound into religion". The general outline, in terms of a literal reading, is easy enough. This can also be said of the Genesis account. However, as I have mentioned to you, there are aspects of the Quranic account whose popular understanding I don't necessarily agree with. Even with that, I share why, and cite relevant arguments and sources. THUS, I don't understand what your objection is here.
Waheed, it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand.
Your "whataboutism" that many non-Muslim parents and teachers also burden their children with religious teachings doesn't excuse Muslims for the potential harm. The world has many stories of people who have faced spiritual turmoil often leading to violence and which can be traced directly back to their childhood religious teachings. Muslims know this is true and aren't afraid to blame parents, just as long as it is non-Muslim parents... just read the Hadith that you, yourself, cited some time ago (Bukhari 2:441). (I can't find your article, can you?) Do you believe that Muslims are incapable of corrupting the minds of children with incoherent and harmful religious notions?
In the discussion, you make assertions about what Allah "meant to do", but the child doesn't actually accept your explanation. This is the problem with your incoherent theology; a theology which simultaneously expects you to believe that Allah has a plan, and that we know at times what His plan is, but we don't know what His plan is at other times. It makes no sense to the child, nor to me, that Allah would place Adam in the Garden knowing that Adam would eat the fruit, or that Allah wanted Adam to eat the fruit, or knowing that Satan would persuade Adam to eat the fruit, or whatever it is that you are trying to explain.
Forget about what Christians say about the Book of Genesis. They read much which simply isn't there. The most important error is failing to notice that Adam and Eve did NOT eat from the Tree of Eternal Life and that the Bible EXPLICITLY denies man future access to this tree. There is no eternal life in Judaism. Muhammad was likewise confused about the two trees and their metaphorical significance. The Jewish authors were not, in the slightest, in denial of their mortality. But you already knew this; you say you've read the story in the Bible.
Adam and Eve DID eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong and with it lost their innocence. This is an important metaphor, totally missed by Muhammad.
The Bible EXPLICITLY places the Garden of Eden in this world. I have no idea where you, or Christians, would get the idea that it was somewhere else. Furthermore, the Bible EXPLICITLY says that man can never return to the Garden. Metaphorically, the Garden has disappeared from our sight and we can never find it again.
You say that we are not punished for the mistakes of our ancestors. Do you really believe this? Can't you see how much suffering there can be on account of the actions of parents and grandparents? Can you argue that we do not suffer as Adam and Eve were made to suffer: loss of innocence, painful childbirth, a life of toil, and finally death? Isn't it clear that there can be no turning back? Even the child in your talk has this figured out. Adam repented and Allah forgave him? Really? This story is immediately followed by the story of one of Adam's sons murdering the other son. The expulsion from the Garden was merely the beginning of our history. "Cursed is the ground because of you." (Genesis 3:18)
Hello NB,
Reviewing your comment here, let's take a look at some of your thoughts:
" Your "whataboutism" that many non-Muslim parents and teachers also burden their children with religious teachings doesn't excuse Muslims for the potential harm." (N-B)
It appears that you think that parents teaching (or arranging for ) religious values and accounts to be "harmful". If you actually oppose religion in general, your comment would make sense, which would display an unfortunate prejudice.
Anything has the potential to harm. Often in teaching topics such as Qadr, I will share the example of a pen. It can be used for writing, but it could be misused as a literal weapon, with which to strike/stab someone. That is not the fault of the pen, or the manufacturer of that pen!
" In the discussion, you make assertions about what Allah "meant to do", but the child doesn't actually accept your explanation. This is the problem with your incoherent theology;" (N-B)
I don't recall saying "Allah meant to do". The concepts were explained, that is all.
* I do, in fact, argue that the "garden" from which Adam left, was a garden here, in this world. The "garden" of the other world is a different thing altogether. Do have a review of the recordings.
* The items that you mention (life and death, painful childbirth, etc..) are simply parts of life. The Christian understanding of these items as being the result of Adam/Eve eating the apple, and thus, introducing sin and curse, is not the Islamic understanding. Yes, I believe that we can (and do) bear some of the consequences of actions (both good and bad) of our families and societies, however that does not extend to the spiritual realm. If our family is malignant, in their actions and outlook, that does not automatically mean that we will be likewise. THERE are plenty of people who have overcome the burdens their families placed them in, to excel and become better people.
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