( Note: below you will find our recent presentation at "Coffee and Converts" program, held at Masjid Ibrahim Las Vegas. In it, we share thoughts on navigating the challenges, both from inside and outside Muslim circles, and developing a healthy Islamic foundation. A brief Q and A session follows. This video is highly recommended to all viewers, regardless of their backround.)
COFFEE AND CONVERTS
16 comments:
Hi Waheed. Had I been at your presentation, I would've asked you about how converts are expected to relate to their non-Muslim family members.
O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people." Q 9:23-24
This seems very harsh and not at all suitable for converts living in the West.
Hello NB,
I'm afraid you have taken the text above out of context. It has a political implication, first and foremost ( a discussion which would derail your initial query) and essentially says that God should come first, a teaching that is found in other faiths as well.
Please see below that this question was asked to some brothers who chose to accept Islam. The entire recording would be beneficial for you to watch ( it is not on our channel), but the relevant part for your question at 33:11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrL-gjLm8wc
Waheed, you do yourself a disservice when you respond in such a dismissive way.
How is what I say out of context? Do you really think that you can just throw that out there and that I or anyone else will understand that you have a legitimate position?
How can a context derail my query when the only question I asked was "how are converts expected to relate to their non-Muslim family members?"
Are you saying that putting God first somehow implies that it is wrong to show respect for your family members who do not choose to make the same religious decision that you do?
Context does matter and we know that the context of these verses is this:
The Surah begins with Muhammad's declaration of his "Final Solution", the elimination of "almushrikeen". By this time, Muhammad had amassed an army of 30000 warriors, so this was no idle threat.
You must remember that Muhammad's fighting men were not born into Islam, but were themselves converts and that the elimination of the mushrikeen would include the killing of fathers and brothers.
That is the context of these two verses.
The context for the young men in your discussion group is very different.
It is possible to see young men faced with this dilemma today. Where there are militias of Islamist who are intent on establishing an Islamic State, they will willingly kill fathers and brothers and they praise Allah while doing so.
As much as you wish that this wasn't the truth, you can't change Muhammad and his Qur'an. He was blinded by hubris and his belligerence and his hatred for those who would not follow him are readily apparent in this Surah and throughout the Qur'an, but especially in this Surah.
Perhaps you would like to invite those men in your discussion group to join us here.
Hello NB
" How is what I say out of context? Do you really think that you can just throw that out there and that I or anyone else will understand that you have a legitimate position?
How can a context derail my query when the only question I asked was "how are converts expected to relate to their non-Muslim family members?"
I KNEW from your initial query where it was going ( and you proved my assumption right) and simply sought to address it beforehand. You reference verses of the Qur'an that a political implication (and even a military one, in a sense), and simply teach that God is supposed to come first, the latter being a teaching which is found in the other religions as well (I can quote Biblical texts for this if you wish, however it should be an axiomatic understanding of religion in general). That is NOT the same thing as showing disrespect towards one's non-Muslim family members. I have quoted in another blog post (which, if memory serves, you read and commented on) a statement from the Qur'an (Q 31:15) which says that while you don't follow disbelieving parents in their worship practices and beliefs, one still has to maintain relations with them in life.
Indeed, rather than initially quoting the above text, the video that was in my reply -in which we asked this very question, should show how Muslims are taught (and do) to deal with Non-Muslim family members. In other words, the video showed the practical, rather than focusing on theoretical.
" Context does matter and we know that the context of these verses is this:
The Surah begins with Muhammad's declaration of his "Final Solution", the elimination of "almushrikeen". By this time, Muhammad had amassed an army of 30000 warriors, so this was no idle threat.
You must remember that Muhammad's fighting men were not born into Islam, but were themselves converts and that the elimination of the mushrikeen would include the killing of fathers and brothers.
That is the context of these two verses" (N-B's post)
The above assertions stem from a serious misconception or misrepresentation of the facts. The Soorah begins with a dissolution of a treaty that had been made between the Makkans and the Muslims, due to an attack on Muslim allied forces by the Makkan side. But even with that, a four month grace period is given (v.2).
As you may know, Makkah surrendered to the Prophet, and he-upon whom be peace- entered into it peacefully and issued a general amnesty which even included figures such as those who murdered and mutilated his uncle, Hamza.
So this "final solution" business is all simply hyperbolic language.
" It is possible to see young men faced with this dilemma today. Where there are militias of Islamist who are intent on establishing an Islamic State, they will willingly kill fathers and brothers and they praise Allah while doing so"
In addition to the Quranic assertion on how to treat one's parents, there are a number of Prophetic traditions that speak on the importance of family, even if they are not Muslims. A battlefield situation is an extreme one, and in any case I know of more Non Muslims mistreating their Muslim family members than the reverse. This is why you should view the reply of the panelists with respect. Instead of simply theory, they tell you their experiences and their understanding of the religious teachings when it comes to their families.
" As much as you wish that this wasn't the truth, you can't change Muhammad and his Qur'an. He was blinded by hubris and his belligerence and his hatred for those who would not follow him are readily apparent in this Surah and throughout the Qur'an, but especially in this Surah" (NB post)
To be honest, reading the above statement feels like more projection, rather than an honest assessment of the Prophet Muhammad and the religion he taught.
Even in our interactions, you have been quite insulting to me personally, belligerent with me as well as the occasional poster such as Shenango, attacking when we don't agree with whatever you happen to assert or what your interpretation happens to be.
In any case, back to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him). He said that One who is expecting mercy from God, he must be merciful to others. He is reported to have said that Removing a harmful thing from the road is a part of faith. The Qur'an says that God has not forbidden just dealings with those who reject the faith. It says that God has the capacity to forgive sins in their entirety. The Prophet spoke out very highly against racism and the like. The Qur'an condemned the practice of female infanticide.
Do any of these sound like they came from a hateful person?
This Soorah itself has therein instructions on distributing charity, it goes to the poor, even towards freeing slaves ( Q 9:60).
Does that honestly sound belligerent?
I hope you can watch the entire video which was posted in the comment, mainly in order that you can see how Islam produced positive results in the lives of the presenters.
Well, Waheed, this has become a test of patience. You shouldn't jump to conclusions. Where I was going was to point out to you that there are two points of view with every conversion. The people on the side of the convert concern themselves mainly with the social problems of the convert, but you should not dismiss the other side's very real and understandable challenges.
We all know that the Qur'an was produced during a period of over two decades. Many things changed during that time: the strength of the Muslim community increased drastically, Muhammad's power increased substantially, and an individual like Muhammad would see the world very differently when he was in his 60s compared to his 40s. More than one thing can be true. Q 31:15 and Q 9:23-24 are two points at opposite ends of a line, the first when the Muslim community was very small and weak and the second when the community was strongly dominant. There is a whole range of possibilities between these two points and the people in your discussion groups fall somewhere in the middle of that range. The video showed "the practical" for their situation, but that doesn't obviate what Muhammad said about the proper attitude when he had power.
So what did you tell the group? Your tip #3 was "staying connected to a loving, nurturing, healthy, moderate Islamic community. I know you have difficulty seeing this from the opposite viewpoint, but can you try to imagine a situation where the young people in YOUR community are being influenced by a charismatic leader with religious views that are very different from your own and he tells them that it is important for them to connect to HIS religious community and (by implication) to disconnect themselves from their family's community? It would be a big problem for any loving parent to see their child attracted into what they perceive as a religious cult. UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THIS, you will never understand the roots of Islamophobia.
You accuse me of using "hyperbolic language", but need I remind you that I rely on Muslim writers recommended to me by Muslims? This is what Maududi says about the opening verses of this Surah: "This proclamation practically reduced the mushriks of Arabia to the position of outlaws and no place of shelter was left for them, for the major part of the country had come under the sway of Islam. As this released the Muslims from the obligations of the treaties made with them and forestalled them, they were driven into a tight corner. ... Now the only alternatives left with them were either to accept Islam that had become the state religion of Arabia, or to fight against it and be exterminated, or to emigrate from the country." Since I'm hearing the points of view of two Muslims, which should I believe, the one who supports his position with evidence or the one who relies on ad hominem?
I believe it was Jesus who said that one who is expecting mercy from God, he must be merciful to others. Is this in the Qur'an, too?
You try to contradict a corrupt pattern by citing isolated instances of positive actions. You should know by now that that is a fallacious argument. A murderer who doesn't murder at every opportunity or who gives charity to his own community is still a murderer. There are many points in Hitler's 25-Point Program which are admirable, but that doesn't mean that we should admire the author! https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm
" Well, Waheed, this has become a test of patience. You shouldn't jump to conclusions. Where I was going was to point out to you that there are two points of view with every conversion. The people on the side of the convert concern themselves mainly with the social problems of the convert, but you should not dismiss the other side's very real and understandable challenges." (N-B post)
As mentioned before, I saw right away what your thinking was. It's not an issue of jumping to conclusions, because it is basically your consistent pattern, i.e., to go towards the most negative conclusion you can think of.
I think we spoke previously in another thread an example of one of the early Muslims, in Ethiopia, summarizing the impact of Islam in the community of early Muslims. He mentions the negative things they left behind, and the benefit of ISLAM ON them.
Change is frightening, no doubt, yet the Makkans, by and large, in the initial stages did not simply express concerns. They did persecution, murder, a variety of things.
" You try to contradict a corrupt pattern by citing isolated instances of positive actions. You should know by now that that is a fallacious argument. A murderer who doesn't murder at every opportunity or who gives charity to his own community is still a murderer. There are many points in Hitler's 25-Point Program which are admirable, but that doesn't mean that we should admire the author " (NB post)
If the Prophet was what you seem to be thinking, Islam would never had spread.
Although there are racists in the world today, Adolph Hitler is nonetheless one of the most hated personalities of the twentieth century.
This is stark contrast with Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who is almost universally respected. His positive impact on the world is well-documented, inspiring Muslims and Non Muslims alike. To compare the Prophet to Hitler is a seriously odd comparison to make.
You say: "it is basically your consistent pattern, i.e., to go towards the most negative conclusion you can think of." What conclusion did I come to that wasn't drawn directly from the text itself? There wasn't even a need to paraphrase the words: "do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies" and "whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoer" The words of the Qur'an speak for themselves.
Anyway, enough about Muhammad.
You didn't respond to my question about which verse in the Qur'an says "One who is expecting mercy from God, he must be merciful to others."
You also didn't respond to my point about your tip #3. To expand on what I said, wouldn't the tip ""staying connected to a loving, nurturing, healthy, moderate Islamic community" still be correct if you removed the constraint of an "Islamic" community. Don't you think that a person who is needing spiritual support would do well to connect with any such community, whether Islamic, or Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist, or Secular Humanist or any group that is accessible to him and could provide him with the support he needs? Why limit him to only one kind of support, support which might not fit his needs at all and which could drive a wedge between him and the natural support of his family?
When I think about how much support I've received from Christians, though I'm not a Christian and I do not accept their faith, I am grateful for their positive, loving outlook. Would they tell me that "whoever takes their father as an ally, then they are the wrongdoers"? I don't think so!
" You say: "it is basically your consistent pattern, i.e., to go towards the most negative conclusion you can think of." What conclusion did I come to that wasn't drawn directly from the text itself? There wasn't even a need to paraphrase the words: "do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies" and "whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoer" The words of the Qur'an speak for themselves.
Anyway, enough about Muhammad. " (NB post)
Your conclusion is zooming in on a meaning that is not intended. Essentially, as stated before, it has a political implication, or, more accurately, a context in conflict. It can be compared to the issue of passing along intelligence unknowingly to the enemy, when the family member is a part of that association. Also, as mentioned before, religion does teach that God comes first and foremost. Does not the Bible have Jesus say that I have come to set father against son and brother against brother? Does it not say that man cannot have two masters?
In any case, the Islamic religion is clear that family ties has to be maintained, even if the family members are unbelievers. I don't know how else to tell you that.
There is a hadeeth which says that the one who wants mercy from the one in the heavens, must likewise be merciful to those in the earth. I am aware that the Bible has Jesus say the same thing, and, thus, find that Jesus and Muhammad (peace be on them both) are in harmony.
I too have received support from Christians and others, even though we disagree on certain religious doctrines. I don't see that as somehow contradictory to what Islam teaches. A person can be a Muslim and have support from Non Muslims, and vice versa as well. As mentioned before however, the word translated as "ally" has more of a political and military meaning, and can be stretched to be understood as a reminder that God comes first, but in NO WAY does it imply that Muslims are to totally break from Non Muslim family members.
Hi Waheed. As you have said, it is important to understand the words in their proper context.
Scholars appear to be in agreement that Surah At-Tawbah was revealed around the time of the expedition to Tabuk. Do you disagree? If you don't agree, then please read what Maududi has to say about this Surah. I am not inventing my own context.
http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/9/index.html
Some noteworthy points about this expedition are:
1. Tens of thousands of warriors were led by Muhammad himself and they were away from Medina for several weeks.
2. Ali was ordered to remain behind to maintain order in Medina. There is no mention of any forces remaining behind and, in fact, Muhammad is critical of those who remained behind for no good reason.
These points contradict your point that the verses were reveal in response to some threat of dissident Arabs. Muhammad clearly had ample power and was in full control of Medina and its surrounding area and faced no significant threat from the family members of the Muslim converts.
You mention verses in the Bible such as in Matthew 10. However, the context of these verse is very different. In these verses, Jesus is speaking directly to his twelve disciples. These men were not warriors and he certainly is not inciting them to take up arms against their family members. The sword that he brings is metaphorical and his words are prophetic, predicting that those with power will fight against his Truth, even sons against fathers, etc.
He goes on in the next verses to emphasise that faith is more important than family, making the point that the disciples will face opposition even from family members but that they must keep the faith.
Finally, Jesus ends with a positive message of welcome, which include "whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward".
I think that you are attempting a hermeneutical approach along these lines: the words of Q 9:23-24 echo some words in the Bible, therefore they must be conveying a similar meaning. The Bible connects these words to the teaching that God comes first, therefore, the Qur'an is IMPLICITLY making this same connection even though there are no such connecting verses like what we see in the Bible.
This approach is seriously flawed for the reasons that I've already stated. I choose to understand the words of the Qur'an as the Medidan Muslims would have.
In responding to an earlier article I was able to prove that Islam's claim that Moses and Muhammad received the same revelation was false. I can now prove the same about the claim that Jesus and Muhammad received the same revelation.
When I was attending public school (not a Christian school), every day, every one of us, regardless of faith, said the words "And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us." It cannot be denied that this is one of the central teachings of Christianity. And the best you can come up with in Islam is "there's a hadith somewhere that says something like this"?
There may be such a hadith, but without support in the Qur'an for such a central concept, I would not accept that it came from Muhammad. Allah, the All-merciful, is mentioned over and over again in the Qur'an, but in the context of it never being too late to repent.
There were many discussions on whyislam.com about the differences between the Christian and the Islamic concepts of forgiveness. Although I didn't have much to say in the discussions, it was clear that the Christian principle of unconditional forgiveness was absent in Islam.
Since this is such a central principle in Christianity and is absent in Islam, it can be asserted that the Qur'anic revelation is NOT a continuation and perfection of the Christian revelation.
Anyway, enough about Muhammad. Could you please post the tips that you presented in the original video? Then we will be able to discuss whether you are promoting the maintenance of family ties or not.
The video has the tips.
Post a Comment