tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post1418678015209696722..comments2024-03-24T18:41:14.098-07:00Comments on Shamsuddin Waheed: Tauheed: understanding the Divine, monotheism as given in IslamShamsuddin Waheedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04457661333236229563noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-82252664808831917102018-10-17T15:33:26.138-07:002018-10-17T15:33:26.138-07:00"you asserted that you in fact don't reje...<i>"you asserted that you in fact don't reject belief in God, and now you are saying something different. Please explain that. "</i><br />If I'm asked "do you believe in God?" my response is "what do you mean by 'God'?" Depending on the answer, I will then commit to saying that I do or do not believe in God based on what the other person means by "God". In most cases of an orthodox Muslim, I will end up tell him that I do not believe in Allah. Since his belief is so rigid, there is little point in even discussing other possible meanings of "God". This is different from what I've experienced with most Jews and even some Christians that I've talked to, namely, they reject a literal interpretation of the Bible and we are actually quite close in our understanding.<br /><br />To choose the example in your post: Do I "fear God"? The answer is "no", not in any literal sense. I've written many times about the absurdity of this Jewish/Christian/Muslim theology. There are legends that thousands of years ago, and over a period of time, some towns were utterly destroyed. To explain this, the people hypothesised that there were supernatural forces and that the towns were selected because of a lack of piety amongst the inhabitants. Nowadays we have much better records of destructive events and we know that there is no correlation between piety and destruction. We know, therefore, that we should not invoke "supernatural forces" as an explanation for destructive events. Yet, religious people still cling to these superstitions even though there are rational explanations.<br /><br />It's also astonishing to me how central the role of the Hereafter is in Islam. There are only a couple of verses in the Tanakh that obliquely might be referring to a hereafter. It certainly isn't a central theme in Judaism. This fact alone is enough for me to reject Islam as being a continuation of the Jewish revelation.<br /><br />I also disagree with you that we should be inspired by fear. I am inspired to "do good things" by my understanding of how societies function. I understand that life is better for all of us if we help each other, if we give generously to those who cannot care for themselves, and not by fighting each other and destroying what others produce. I treat other people how I would like to be treated.<br /><br />You can see that my outlook is a positive outlook. "Fear of God", a negative viewpoint, never enters into my thinking, not at all, not ever.<br /><br />I didn't say that "religion is wrong". That's much too broad of a statement to argue. I have pointed out numerous ways in which Islam is wrong, specifically in this thread, by pointing out that you have denied the fundamental role that randomness plays in the universe.<br /><br />PS. I still don't understand the "either/or" in Ali's letter. Aren't all brothers in faith also brothers in humanity? Logically, this isn't an "or" situation.Non Believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-85011080787716340312018-10-13T15:31:44.519-07:002018-10-13T15:31:44.519-07:00" As I said, you must believe that it is God&..." As I said, you must believe that it is God's will that there is neither more nor less Taqwaa seen in the world. Either this is God's plan or it is not."<br /><br />That is admittedly a theological or philosophical aspect of it, which is perhaps a longer and separate topic, in any case, the "fear of God" should inspire good things in the world. <br /><br />" The tyranny that I'm referring to is the tyranny of religion. The oppressed are those people who feel compelled to believe religious doctrine even when there is compelling evidence that the religion is wrong. In short, you are the victim of your religious beliefs. I'm am citing but one example of this, namely, that your errant religious doctrine prevents you from understanding the reality of randomness. Furthermore, it is clearly a profanity to say that you have no choice but to believe as you do because your errant doctrine was "revealed" by God."<br /><br />In another blog comment, you asserted that you in fact don't reject belief in God, and now you are saying something different. Please explain that. <br /><br />I have not seen any evidence that "religion is wrong". <br /><br />" I don't understand what you mean by this. The articles I found on the internet were confusing. I'd be interested to know how you understand this"<br /><br />This was part of a letter that 'Ali sent to one of his governors. He is reminding them to be just because people are created by God, so they all either share the same religion or the same origin ( in the sense of being created by the same God and sharing the same humanity)Shamsuddin Waheedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04457661333236229563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-65817236104111273052018-10-08T17:56:19.302-07:002018-10-08T17:56:19.302-07:00If Taqwaa was more seen in the world, the less opp...<i>If Taqwaa was more seen in the world, the less oppression would exist.</i><br /><br />As I said, you must believe that it is God's will that there is neither more nor less Taqwaa seen in the world. Either this is God's plan or it is not.<br /><br /><i>Why do you insist that I am "imposing"? ... It's not a dictatorship or anything of that sort.</i><br /><br />The tyranny that I'm referring to is the tyranny of religion. The oppressed are those people who feel compelled to believe religious doctrine even when there is compelling evidence that the religion is wrong. In short, <i>you</i> are the victim of your religious beliefs. I'm am citing but one example of this, namely, that your errant religious doctrine prevents you from understanding the reality of randomness. Furthermore, it is clearly a profanity to say that you have no choice but to believe as you do because your errant doctrine was "revealed" by God.<br /><br /><i>I think education and really awareness are key</i><br /><br />Yes, of course, education based on our understanding of reality and not biased by religious doctrine.<br /><br /><i>The only point of contention with your comment above is that religion, in terms of key fundamental principles, can do much to bring forth social justice.</i><br /><br />Yes, understanding that religions are <b><i>built on</i></b> the fundamental principles, principles which exist even in the absence of religion. Religion merely organises how we think about these principles, sometimes in a good way, but often not.<br /><br /><i>He said either they are brothers in faith or brothers in humanity.</i><br /><br />I don't understand what you mean by this. The articles I found on the internet were confusing. I'd be interested to know how <b>you</b> understand this.Non Believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-65701676808247093822018-10-04T20:18:22.923-07:002018-10-04T20:18:22.923-07:00" In the last century, scientific research ha..." In the last century, scientific research has discovered how the entire universe is built on random processes. It's difficult for human minds to comprehend the implications of this randomness. However, any view of what happens in reality that doesn't allow for its inherent randomness doesn't consider the universe's intrinsic design. I don't blame the ancients for this mistake; they just didn't know or understand the truth."<br /><br />It's an easy thing to say "random processes", but even the statement itself has "processes". That suggest a "process". That suggests organization and structure. Even your term "The universe intrinsic design" has the same implication. <br /><br />In any case, that issue is an extremely long one, unable to be adequately addressed in a comment. <br /><br />" No, sir, you can believe what you say if you want, but that isn't how life works and to impose these thoughts on how we think about God is, in my view, profane."<br /><br />Why do you insist that I am "imposing"? This is a blog, we all share what we think about the subject. It's not a dictatorship or anything of that sort.<br /><br />" There is so much to understand about social justice and why mankind fails so miserably to achieve a just society. Simplistic hypotheses about God's nature only mask and hinder serious research into these issues. Hanging on to incomplete and inaccurate religious ideas is intellectually defeating, and I would say, spiritually defeating as well."<br /><br />There is some truth to the above. For social justice to be achieved, consciousness is needed. It is the same with issues such as taking care of our environment. When we look at that issue we can see clearly invested interests who, for example, deny climate change. We are all guilty in those regards, as we all drive personal vehicles and as modern societies do so much damage to the world. Again, admittedly that is a longer discussion but I think education and really awareness are key.<br /><br />The only point of contention with your comment above is that religion, in terms of key fundamental principles, can do much to bring forth social justice. 'Ali ibn Abi Taalib, cousin of the Prophet, warned a governor of his to be careful with justice. After all, people are of two types. He said either they are brothers in faith or brothers in humanity.Shamsuddin Waheedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04457661333236229563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-73601084809276955872018-10-04T20:18:02.197-07:002018-10-04T20:18:02.197-07:00Hello NB
Thanks again for your comments. Please t...Hello NB<br /><br />Thanks again for your comments. Please try to understand that ( in response to your question), the purpose of this article (admittedly very old) was to present the Islamic understanding of the Divine, and why other viewpoints or descriptions are, at best, problematic from an Islamic perspective. I actually agree to an extent when you say that we should not get bogged down with competing terminologies, but that is precisely what happens, especially in the world today. In the world of attempting to be politically correct, God is sometimes referred to as "He/She" and similar expressions. Islam's basic message about that is this- avoid using terms that can give an inaccurate or incomplete understanding of God. <br /><br />" Thinking like this does not acknowledge the fundamental realities of life. There is much injustice in the world, and if you believe that God is responsible for all things, you must believe that God is responsible for the injustice. People with religious beliefs like Muslims and Christians has trouble reconciling this with their hope that God is just and compassionate. But that is just a hope supported by scriptures which cannot be supported with real evidence. These same believers resort to the invention of a Hereafter and hope that if injustice is not punished in this world, then maybe it will be punished in another world. It simply doesn't make sense that God permits injustice in the world so that he can condemn the unjust to an eternal Hell."<br /><br />The older I get the more I can see God's plan and interaction in the world of man. This is admittedly a subjective statement, yet that is my belief. There is injustice in the world, but often the victims are compensated even in this life. Life is like a tapestry with many threads, it is like a road with many bumps and often hardships which, when dealt with, open the doors to even better things. This also convinces me (albeit with scriptural support as well) that what happens here has an affect in that which is to come. In other words, more life experience has convinced me that paradise and hell are real, and that judgement day, a moment when all stand before God, is also a reality. <br /><br />Taqwaa, or being aware of these things, helps to keep people from becoming oppressive, because they have an awareness of God and his judgement. If Taqwaa was more seen in the world, the less oppression would exist.<br /><br /><br />Shamsuddin Waheedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04457661333236229563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60437669680290811.post-39023661679327725542018-10-03T15:00:08.953-07:002018-10-03T15:00:08.953-07:00Hi Waheed.
I wonder if it is possible for you to ...Hi Waheed.<br /><br />I wonder if it is possible for you to conceive of a monotheism that is vastly different from that given in Islam, in other words, a view of God which considers the Qur'an to be sacrilegious?<br /><br />Much of your article worries about the use of words and images to describe the indescribable. One shouldn't get so hung up on words like "Father" or whether cultures use imagery in an attempt to portray their relationship with God in understandable terms. The words we use is unimportant. What matters is having a proper understanding of how God's universe functions.<br /><br />Sorry, but I just realized that the statement that I wanted to comment on is in the other article. If you don't mind, I'll continue on...<br /><br />Waheed: "There is no injustice from God, ..."<br /><br />Thinking like this does not acknowledge the fundamental realities of life. There is much injustice in the world, and if you believe that God is responsible for all things, you must believe that God is responsible for the injustice. People with religious beliefs like Muslims and Christians has trouble reconciling this with their hope that God is just and compassionate. But that is just a hope supported by scriptures which cannot be supported with real evidence. These same believers resort to the invention of a Hereafter and hope that if injustice is not punished in this world, then maybe it will be punished in another world. It simply doesn't make sense that God permits injustice in the world so that he can condemn the unjust to an eternal Hell.<br /><br />Also, you have verses like Q 18:78-82 in which Muhammad attempts to explain why bad things happen to good people; a philosophy of religious optimism for which there is no basis in fact. It's a useless philosophy and no more helpful than those things you eschew, like worshipping idols or invoking saints. Life is real; embrace it!<br /><br />Waheed: "... nor are there any random occurrences."<br /><br />In the last century, scientific research has discovered how the entire universe is built on random processes. It's difficult for human minds to comprehend the implications of this randomness. However, any view of what happens in reality that doesn't allow for its inherent randomness doesn't consider the universe's intrinsic design. I don't blame the ancients for this mistake; they just didn't know or understand the truth.<br /><br />No, sir, you can believe what you say if you want, but that isn't how life works and to impose these thoughts on how we think about God is, in my view, profane.<br /><br />There is so much to understand about social justice and why mankind fails so miserably to achieve a just society. Simplistic hypotheses about God's nature only mask and hinder serious research into these issues. Hanging on to incomplete and inaccurate religious ideas is intellectually defeating, and I would say, spiritually defeating as well.<br />Non Believernoreply@blogger.com